This thread is akin to attending a series of Wimbledon matches but with words and points instead of a tennis ball. It has brought out some passionate viewpoints on both side of this proverbial net. Whether you love this new series, loath it or fluctuate somewhere in between, the points and perspectives brought up here are engaging. Like any intense match it can be exhausting for the participants yet also invigorating as they work the court.
As long as players are focused on the match itself rather than something more personal, then we have a good game. Yet that is the challenging part too; when each point or perspective of a statement is countered/critiqued.
Perhaps refocusing on critiquing or relishing elements occurring within each episode itself while also striving to limit going outside the actual episodes rather than who or what is right and who is incorrect on other indirect points may help to keep things centered on each episode as this discussion continues. This is merely an observation, perhaps something to consider and nothing more.
Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Hey Kheren,
I'm not going to address every rebut that you made in your latest post as I don't think it'll do any good; you have your views, I have mine. Actually, I think we would make a good YouTube video reviewing each episode; we would draw US, Canada, and UK audiences! Boy, there's a scary thought... the Athos & Kheren review panel, with guests from Lotus Fleet and the Trekkie Girls. Trekkies would likely tune in given how in depth we're getting in this back and forth from just 1 episode. I did want to address #1 though.
Thank you for posting this video which I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojtX_Oz4WsU
Pop Quiz: Did you see me in that video? Check out 6:29 - 6:31; it's a picture of a bunch of fans from the Star Trek Las Vegas Convention. I'm wearing a First Contact Admiral's uniform; I have a flat top hair cut; lower left. I'm famous! LOL
OOOOkay. Now I understand where you are getting your terminology from. It's ironic because you're using resources outside of Trek to justify your position, something that you called party foul on me for doing earlier. A few lessons learned from that video:
1. I really hate legal mumbo jumbo crap (just make good Star Trek dang it!)
2. We all should really not like Les Moonves (for more than 1 reason)
3. We should all be hoping for a CBS Viacom re-merger as it may get rid of the Alternate License crap and allow the Original License Trek to be made again.
After watching the video, I understand that you consider:
1. CBS Licensed Trek is canon (TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies)
2. Paramount Licensed Trek is not canon (2009 and beyond movies, STD, and now STP)
Is that correct? Can we agree to some common vocabulary to make communicating easier?
Prime Licensed Trek = TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies as produced under the CBS ownership
Prime Universe = Those events which occur along the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
Alternate Licensed Trek = 2009 Star Trek, Into Darkness, Beyond, STD and STP as produced under the Paramount/Alternate license
Alternate Universe = Those events which occur outside of the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
Will that work for you?
Believe me, I'm happy to declare that STD is NOT Prime Universe OR Prime Timeline. From episode 1 of that show, I hated it because NOTHING tracked with the Prime Universe, so how could it be anything other than Alternate Universe?. It could be considered a 3rd timeline; there's the Prime Universe Timeline; the JJ Abrams movies Timeline; now the STD timeline. But I also was not wrong when I said, "STD is meant to occur in the same timeline (the Prime Timeline) as TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT." That IS the goal...that it is meant to. I'm very happy to find a rationale as to why it isn't part of the Prime Universe, and you've just given it to me. Thanks!
ST Picard, however, is a different story for me, at least at this point. Even though STP is an Alternate Licensed Trek, STP is using the original actors from the Prime Universe; they are solidly utilizing Prime Universe tie-backs (Easter Eggs); and they are continuing the story of Picard and Seven and a slew of other characters. I understand that under licensing, STP is an Alternate Licensed Trek, BUT...if you just take it in the context of the show, without looking at those outside licensing factors, the story fits within the Prime Universe very, very neatly. Agree? Disagree? If disagree, please explain what within the show does not fit within the Prime Universe.
Additionally, within the world of Star Trek, traveling back in time and changing past events does create an alternate timeline. TNG Yesterday's Enterprise established that, as well as TOS Guardian of Forever (or was the episode called Amok Time?), as well as pretty much any other time travel episode from the Prime Licensed Trek (which there is a lot).
As of now, a CBS and Viacom remerger is the best hope for Star Trek as we like it. I hope that STD is cancelled and that we don't see Season 3, or it's done after Season 3. We really don't need any more of that crap. A re-merger could completely ignore the JJ Abrams movies and STD; however, I do not think it would ignore STP. My opinion.
Anyway...you and anyone else are free to post on this thread your thoughts. I likely will choose to not to respond and just let others read and form their own opinions, of which you and I have both made good points and observations, both within the world of Star Trek and externally. And I do know that your native tongue is French; I was actually curious if the ST Picard that you watch is the French translation instead of the original English? Some things do tend to get lost in translation, so didn't know if a language barrier was responsible for some of our opposing viewpoints.
I'm not going to address every rebut that you made in your latest post as I don't think it'll do any good; you have your views, I have mine. Actually, I think we would make a good YouTube video reviewing each episode; we would draw US, Canada, and UK audiences! Boy, there's a scary thought... the Athos & Kheren review panel, with guests from Lotus Fleet and the Trekkie Girls. Trekkies would likely tune in given how in depth we're getting in this back and forth from just 1 episode. I did want to address #1 though.
Thank you for posting this video which I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojtX_Oz4WsU
Pop Quiz: Did you see me in that video? Check out 6:29 - 6:31; it's a picture of a bunch of fans from the Star Trek Las Vegas Convention. I'm wearing a First Contact Admiral's uniform; I have a flat top hair cut; lower left. I'm famous! LOL
OOOOkay. Now I understand where you are getting your terminology from. It's ironic because you're using resources outside of Trek to justify your position, something that you called party foul on me for doing earlier. A few lessons learned from that video:
1. I really hate legal mumbo jumbo crap (just make good Star Trek dang it!)
2. We all should really not like Les Moonves (for more than 1 reason)
3. We should all be hoping for a CBS Viacom re-merger as it may get rid of the Alternate License crap and allow the Original License Trek to be made again.
After watching the video, I understand that you consider:
1. CBS Licensed Trek is canon (TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies)
2. Paramount Licensed Trek is not canon (2009 and beyond movies, STD, and now STP)
Is that correct? Can we agree to some common vocabulary to make communicating easier?
Prime Licensed Trek = TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies as produced under the CBS ownership
Prime Universe = Those events which occur along the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
Alternate Licensed Trek = 2009 Star Trek, Into Darkness, Beyond, STD and STP as produced under the Paramount/Alternate license
Alternate Universe = Those events which occur outside of the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
Will that work for you?
Believe me, I'm happy to declare that STD is NOT Prime Universe OR Prime Timeline. From episode 1 of that show, I hated it because NOTHING tracked with the Prime Universe, so how could it be anything other than Alternate Universe?. It could be considered a 3rd timeline; there's the Prime Universe Timeline; the JJ Abrams movies Timeline; now the STD timeline. But I also was not wrong when I said, "STD is meant to occur in the same timeline (the Prime Timeline) as TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT." That IS the goal...that it is meant to. I'm very happy to find a rationale as to why it isn't part of the Prime Universe, and you've just given it to me. Thanks!
ST Picard, however, is a different story for me, at least at this point. Even though STP is an Alternate Licensed Trek, STP is using the original actors from the Prime Universe; they are solidly utilizing Prime Universe tie-backs (Easter Eggs); and they are continuing the story of Picard and Seven and a slew of other characters. I understand that under licensing, STP is an Alternate Licensed Trek, BUT...if you just take it in the context of the show, without looking at those outside licensing factors, the story fits within the Prime Universe very, very neatly. Agree? Disagree? If disagree, please explain what within the show does not fit within the Prime Universe.
Additionally, within the world of Star Trek, traveling back in time and changing past events does create an alternate timeline. TNG Yesterday's Enterprise established that, as well as TOS Guardian of Forever (or was the episode called Amok Time?), as well as pretty much any other time travel episode from the Prime Licensed Trek (which there is a lot).
As of now, a CBS and Viacom remerger is the best hope for Star Trek as we like it. I hope that STD is cancelled and that we don't see Season 3, or it's done after Season 3. We really don't need any more of that crap. A re-merger could completely ignore the JJ Abrams movies and STD; however, I do not think it would ignore STP. My opinion.
Anyway...you and anyone else are free to post on this thread your thoughts. I likely will choose to not to respond and just let others read and form their own opinions, of which you and I have both made good points and observations, both within the world of Star Trek and externally. And I do know that your native tongue is French; I was actually curious if the ST Picard that you watch is the French translation instead of the original English? Some things do tend to get lost in translation, so didn't know if a language barrier was responsible for some of our opposing viewpoints.
Founder: Lotus Fleet -- Academy Division XO, CO -- Creator: Lotus Fleet Academy
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Wow Athos; Kudos to you for being on the pic Greatness is in your nature.
Yeah we would bring the Siskel and Ebert formula back. It did work quite well in the days
Yep I agree with your 3 assessments.
Yep, we agree on the 2 definitions. Each of the two licenses is a separate Trek
Licence 1 (ViacomCBS owned) : Canon universe= classic Trek from 1966 to 2005
Licence 2 (Paramount through Bad Robot/Secret Hideout owned): Kelvin & Prime Universe= prime is background made up loosely from canon by Abrams for his Kelvin Universe 3 movies. STD and STP are currently fleshing out this background and linking up.
Yeah sorry to burst your bubble but STD IS Prime universe (licence 2) not canon (license 1) despite the misleading PR; nothing in STD aligns with classic Trek and all of it belongs to license 2. and STP is also Prime; Kurtzman stated it will align exactly with STD season 3. We already saw the STD Enterprise hologram in episode 2. Seeing it being blurred with the canon Ent D is the visual symbol of what they are attempting.
The problem we currently have is that Bad Robot/Secret Hideout Prime Universe is trying to blur the lines to legitimate it's own alternate product and eventually phase out classic Trek to occupy the field entirely. Fortunately, they are astoundingly bad at it.
What is also not helping is that CBS hired Secret Hideout to make their Trek under their License 2 for CBS ALL Access while they keep their own licence 1 Trek in limbo; except to sell bit of it with separate licencses for Kurtzman to pepper his own series with.
Nope, no irony there. I said I rejected external source that were deemed necessary to explain a plot that should stand on it's own; not that all external sources are to be rejected for any reason. I still stand by my position that if a story needs another story to make sense, it is a weak story. If an episode needs a comics to make sense, then it's a weak episode.That's my sole point about external sources. Again as an example, even if there is foreshadowing in previous episodes, you don't need any of it for Best of Both Worlds to make sense.
Concerning time travel; alternate timelines is a concept of Licence 2 only. It was blurred with the concept of the multiverse to allow Abrams to have his own Star Trek free of established canon (thus free for merchandizing control). He said it explicitely. So TNG Parallels (multiverse) was blended with time travel a la First Contact and voila; total freedom with no consequences ever for changing things.
In licence 1, it has NEVER EVER been so. From City on the Edge of Forever to First Contact and all the way through The Year of Hell, changing the past NEVER created an alternate timeline alongside the original one, leaving it untouched, as in Trek 2009. IT ALWAYS ERASED the true one and left ONLY the altered one in place. Hence why in classic Trek, it has ALWAYS been top priority to restore the original timeline by correcting the alteration. Because in canon Trek, stories are morality tales about responsibility and consequences.
So no, in Yesterday's Enterprise and City on the Edge of Forever (Amok Time is the one about Pon Farr), it was NOT an alternate timeline. It was an ALTERED timeline that DESTROYED the original one and took it's place. Hence why it was imperative for the ENT C to return and be destroyed and for Edith Keeler to die. With an alternate parallel timeline, as in 09, this never need to happen. Following Licence 2's take on time travel, the death of Edith and of the crew of Garrett's ship makes no sense. They can continue happily in the new reality.
Yeah there is hope on the horizon. The Kelvin timeline is dead in the water. But STD season 3 is unfortunately a given as they have already spent hundreds of millions of dollars on it (allegedly 40 millions PER EPISODE!). We'll see if this rip-off of Andromeda will bury it for good. And STP will foreshadow it, according to Kurtzman.
STP is not translated yet as far as I know. But I never watch Star Trek in French as it is atrocious to hear. Except for TOS back in the original days were it had been superbly dubbed. But since learning English in high school, I always enjoy US entertainment in it's own language. So what I saw and heard is exactly what you saw and heard.
That reminds me of a line in STP ep 01 that had me laughing out loud; When Picard asks Agnes: ''Is it possible to create a sentient android out of flesh and blood?'' the answer came spontaneously in my mind:
''Yep, takes about 9 months; it's called a child.''
Somehow, that question did fit Jean-Luc Picard perfectly
EDIT :Word is out that NBC and Seth McFarlane walked out of the meeting early on with CBS about buying their license. Seems the pricetag was ridiculous. Bummer but that's only the first round. CBS is not closing the door and those kinds of negociations take a long time and have lots of twists and turns. The recent Spider-Man one is a good example. We can still hope.
Yeah we would bring the Siskel and Ebert formula back. It did work quite well in the days
Yep I agree with your 3 assessments.
Yep, we agree on the 2 definitions. Each of the two licenses is a separate Trek
Licence 1 (ViacomCBS owned) : Canon universe= classic Trek from 1966 to 2005
Licence 2 (Paramount through Bad Robot/Secret Hideout owned): Kelvin & Prime Universe= prime is background made up loosely from canon by Abrams for his Kelvin Universe 3 movies. STD and STP are currently fleshing out this background and linking up.
Yeah sorry to burst your bubble but STD IS Prime universe (licence 2) not canon (license 1) despite the misleading PR; nothing in STD aligns with classic Trek and all of it belongs to license 2. and STP is also Prime; Kurtzman stated it will align exactly with STD season 3. We already saw the STD Enterprise hologram in episode 2. Seeing it being blurred with the canon Ent D is the visual symbol of what they are attempting.
The problem we currently have is that Bad Robot/Secret Hideout Prime Universe is trying to blur the lines to legitimate it's own alternate product and eventually phase out classic Trek to occupy the field entirely. Fortunately, they are astoundingly bad at it.
What is also not helping is that CBS hired Secret Hideout to make their Trek under their License 2 for CBS ALL Access while they keep their own licence 1 Trek in limbo; except to sell bit of it with separate licencses for Kurtzman to pepper his own series with.
Nope, no irony there. I said I rejected external source that were deemed necessary to explain a plot that should stand on it's own; not that all external sources are to be rejected for any reason. I still stand by my position that if a story needs another story to make sense, it is a weak story. If an episode needs a comics to make sense, then it's a weak episode.That's my sole point about external sources. Again as an example, even if there is foreshadowing in previous episodes, you don't need any of it for Best of Both Worlds to make sense.
Concerning time travel; alternate timelines is a concept of Licence 2 only. It was blurred with the concept of the multiverse to allow Abrams to have his own Star Trek free of established canon (thus free for merchandizing control). He said it explicitely. So TNG Parallels (multiverse) was blended with time travel a la First Contact and voila; total freedom with no consequences ever for changing things.
In licence 1, it has NEVER EVER been so. From City on the Edge of Forever to First Contact and all the way through The Year of Hell, changing the past NEVER created an alternate timeline alongside the original one, leaving it untouched, as in Trek 2009. IT ALWAYS ERASED the true one and left ONLY the altered one in place. Hence why in classic Trek, it has ALWAYS been top priority to restore the original timeline by correcting the alteration. Because in canon Trek, stories are morality tales about responsibility and consequences.
So no, in Yesterday's Enterprise and City on the Edge of Forever (Amok Time is the one about Pon Farr), it was NOT an alternate timeline. It was an ALTERED timeline that DESTROYED the original one and took it's place. Hence why it was imperative for the ENT C to return and be destroyed and for Edith Keeler to die. With an alternate parallel timeline, as in 09, this never need to happen. Following Licence 2's take on time travel, the death of Edith and of the crew of Garrett's ship makes no sense. They can continue happily in the new reality.
Yeah there is hope on the horizon. The Kelvin timeline is dead in the water. But STD season 3 is unfortunately a given as they have already spent hundreds of millions of dollars on it (allegedly 40 millions PER EPISODE!). We'll see if this rip-off of Andromeda will bury it for good. And STP will foreshadow it, according to Kurtzman.
STP is not translated yet as far as I know. But I never watch Star Trek in French as it is atrocious to hear. Except for TOS back in the original days were it had been superbly dubbed. But since learning English in high school, I always enjoy US entertainment in it's own language. So what I saw and heard is exactly what you saw and heard.
That reminds me of a line in STP ep 01 that had me laughing out loud; When Picard asks Agnes: ''Is it possible to create a sentient android out of flesh and blood?'' the answer came spontaneously in my mind:
''Yep, takes about 9 months; it's called a child.''
Somehow, that question did fit Jean-Luc Picard perfectly
EDIT :Word is out that NBC and Seth McFarlane walked out of the meeting early on with CBS about buying their license. Seems the pricetag was ridiculous. Bummer but that's only the first round. CBS is not closing the door and those kinds of negociations take a long time and have lots of twists and turns. The recent Spider-Man one is a good example. We can still hope.
Fleet XO - RP Director - Former Fleet Admiral, Operations CO, JAG and Ambassador - Former Captain of the USS Artemis and of the flagship USS Horizon - Current Captain of the USS Millennium
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
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Kheren - Admiral
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Okay Kheren, please pay attention to the terms below and their definitions. Disregard other definitions of Prime Universe and Alternate Universe as I have defined them in my previous post and you just agreed to them in your reply.
Prime Licensed Trek = TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies as produced under the CBS ownership
Prime Universe = Those events which occur along the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
Alternate Licensed Trek = 2009 Star Trek, Into Darkness, Beyond, STD and STP as produced under the Paramount/Alternate license
Alternate Universe = Those events which occur outside of the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
The reason that this terminology is important is that the Prime Licensed Trek and Alternate Licensed Trek refers to how the shows were filmed; an outside perspective of Trek. The terms Prime Universe and Alternate Universe are taken from the viewpoint of only within the shows themselves, disregarding who made what.
Okay, so since we've just established common terminology:
Concerning Time Travel and alternate timelines; it is most definitely not an invention of the Alternate Licensed Trek. See this link: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Parallel_universe
Also: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Alternate_timeline
In the TNG episode Parallels, we establish that there are an infinite number of Quantum Realities, one for every possible outcome in history. While the episode uses the term "Quantum Reality", it's the exact same concept of an alternate timeline. Those quantum realities continue to exist regardless of if they make a show about it or not.
I must point out that the DS9 episodes DS9: "Past Tense, Part I", "Past Tense, Part II", Sisko went back in time and changed the timeline when Gabriel Bell was killed. Sisko played the role of Gabriel Bell long enough to preserve the timeline, which worked, but Federation Historical records now show Sisko's portrait in an entry regarding Gabriel Bell. That means that the timeline was altered and all of our Prime Universe Trek is in that alternate timeline.
Prime Licensed Trek = TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies as produced under the CBS ownership
Prime Universe = Those events which occur along the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
Alternate Licensed Trek = 2009 Star Trek, Into Darkness, Beyond, STD and STP as produced under the Paramount/Alternate license
Alternate Universe = Those events which occur outside of the original timeline of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and 10 movies.
The reason that this terminology is important is that the Prime Licensed Trek and Alternate Licensed Trek refers to how the shows were filmed; an outside perspective of Trek. The terms Prime Universe and Alternate Universe are taken from the viewpoint of only within the shows themselves, disregarding who made what.
Okay, so since we've just established common terminology:
- TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT and their 10 movies are all Prime Licensed Trek and Prime Universe (as defined above).
- 2009 Star trek, Into Darkness, and Beyond are all Alternate Licensed Trek that occur in the Alternate Universe (aside from the Romulan supernova which occurred in the Prime Universe).
- DIS is Alternate Licensed Trek that, per the producers, is supposed to occur in the Prime Universe, but is complete trash as nothing that occurs there actually lines up with the Prime Universe, so MUST be events of the Alternate Universe OR yet another, new Alternate Universe.
- PIC is an Alternate Licensed Trek that occurs in the Prime Universe.
Concerning Time Travel and alternate timelines; it is most definitely not an invention of the Alternate Licensed Trek. See this link: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Parallel_universe
Also: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Alternate_timeline
In the TNG episode Parallels, we establish that there are an infinite number of Quantum Realities, one for every possible outcome in history. While the episode uses the term "Quantum Reality", it's the exact same concept of an alternate timeline. Those quantum realities continue to exist regardless of if they make a show about it or not.
I must point out that the DS9 episodes DS9: "Past Tense, Part I", "Past Tense, Part II", Sisko went back in time and changed the timeline when Gabriel Bell was killed. Sisko played the role of Gabriel Bell long enough to preserve the timeline, which worked, but Federation Historical records now show Sisko's portrait in an entry regarding Gabriel Bell. That means that the timeline was altered and all of our Prime Universe Trek is in that alternate timeline.
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Athos - Rear Admiral
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Nope we don't agree at all.
TOS TAS TNG VOY DS9 ENT are part of Licence 1. The movies 1-10 belongs to Paramount but were made under license 1 .This is called the CANON UNIVERSE.
THIS is what Seth McFarlane/NBC want to buy.THEY will NOT get anything from STD, PICARD or the Kelvin movies, the other licence of the PRIME and KELVIN universes. ALL this belongs to Bad Robot/Secret Hideout; unless they buy pieces of it (i.e. the Hobus incident) with a specific licencing, like STP did with the ENT D.
Abrams movies, STD and STP and upcoming Lower Decks belong to licence 2, under which PRIME UNIVERSE is the background for the KELVIN UNIVERSE, loosely based on CANON UNIVERSE for the explicit purpose of DISTANCING and FREEING IT FROM CANON while still exploit it to legitimate it, pay no royalties to owners of license 1 and confuse fans like you that it is the same so you will buy their stuff.
They are also just as distinct in a in-universe viewpoint. STD does NOT belong in The Cage's time period in CANON; only in PRIME. The events of STD never happened in CANON;no USS Senzhou with bridge windshield, no USS Discovery with mushroom drive or black alert, no giant tardigrade, no T'Kuvma heading a Klingon cult, no Klingon cemetery ship, No Klingorcs with cloaking devices 10 years before Balance of Terror, No Spock half-sister with Iron Man's suit, no mutiny on a Starfleet ship, no Section 31 Fleet and badges, no AI Controller, no planetary bomb to enforce Klingon peace etc. As Picard is OFFICIALLY aligned with STD, it is thus officially also in PRIME, NOT CANON.
So you have CANON Universe owned by CBS. Everything that is not Abrams/Kurtzman legally or creatively (everything prior to 2009).
You have KELVIN Universe owned by Bad Robot/Secret Hideout where PRIME Universe is their loose version of Canon. Everything that is legally and creatively Abrams/Kurtzman (everything from 2009 onward so far)
I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
If Prime and Canon are the same, City on the Edge of Forever and ALL time travel episodes in canon make no sense. Heck in TNG, they even were careful in the Robin Hood recreation of Q because of the risk that it COULD be the real thing so History HAD to play out, just to stay safe. Again, this is nonsense with a parallel reality. I prefer my Star Trek to make sense. So there is CANON and there is PRIME. This way, it ALL make sense.
And here we come to time travel. Now, you are equating ALTERNATE and ALTERED timelines. If anything, your last sentence shows it explicitely.
I don't; alternate means an other one that may exist along with the original one. In the Abramsverse, it means BOTH (Prime and Kelvin) exist contiguously with one another. But ALTERED mean it is the ORIGINAL one that is changed, that it doesn't exist anymore; ONLY the new one. This is what we have in CANON.
NO Abrams did not invent it; I know, I've been reading and watching sci-fi for over fifty years. Abrams explicitely stated he is using it to do away with the burden of canon while not alienating fans of it; he did not ALTER the original; he made an ALTERNATE version; same but not same, HIS Star Trek.''
In CANON, TNG Parallels is not called a time travel but a multiverse story. In the Abramsverse (Prime and Kelvin) the two are one and the same (boy they like confusing things, don't they?) and this is the only version offered in their non-canon Star Trek.
THAT is another major difference between CANON and PRIME/KELVIN. In canon, everything has consequences. In PRIME/KELVIN, it is inconsequential as you just create another additional reality to live in. Hence why PRIME Spock in 2009 did nothing to restore the timeline even when billions of Vulcans were killed, while CANON Spock was adamant that Kirk let his love die to restore it. See the difference?
Now about Past Tense; notice that Sisko did NOT create another parallel timeline; he ALTERED the ONE timeline he exists in; he did NOT create a new one while the one with another Bell still exists; no, that one is GONE. Now there is ONLY the Sisko-as-Bell remaining. So it is an ALTERED timeline, NOT an ALTERNATE timeline. See the difference?
The multiverse introduced in Trek with TOS Mirror Mirror and up to and including TNG Parallels are about INFINITE ALTERNATE REALITIES, some that parallel our own events/History. In OUR universe, the CANON universe, the Federation is an utopia; in the Mirror Universe, it is a dystopia. It not a different history of OUR universe because it is not OUR universe but ANOTHER UNIVERSE with it's OWN divergent History eerily similar but not quite. In CANON we were also introduced to even more different realities like an Antimatter universe (TOS The Alternative Factor) and even a Void universe (TOS The Tholian Web) which can also connect to the Mirror Universe (ENT In A Mirror Darkly). All are alternate REALITIES with their OWN timelines, NOT different timelines of our OWN universe.
Thus, the KELVIN UNIVERSE (let's callit U3) already existed (evidenced with the USS Kelvin, the ENT, warp speed and phasers totally different etc) and then was ALTERED by an interference from yet another universe, the PRIME UNIVERSE (U2), where the Hobus supernova happened THERE; not in the CANON UNIVERSE (U1), but a universe (U2) where there has been in it's past a USS Discovery with mushroom drive fighting Klingorcs with cloaks and cemetery ships in Pike's time; the PRIME universe (U2). The PRIME universe (U2) even has it's own MIRROR Universe MU2) quite different from the mirror universe (MU1) in CANON (U1).
I know this can be all very confusing. But to me it is crystal clear that Abrams films, STD and STP are their own thing, while Trek from 1966 to 2005 is another. So far, I much, much prefer the latter. Some the former; some both; some neither.
To each his own.
TOS TAS TNG VOY DS9 ENT are part of Licence 1. The movies 1-10 belongs to Paramount but were made under license 1 .This is called the CANON UNIVERSE.
THIS is what Seth McFarlane/NBC want to buy.THEY will NOT get anything from STD, PICARD or the Kelvin movies, the other licence of the PRIME and KELVIN universes. ALL this belongs to Bad Robot/Secret Hideout; unless they buy pieces of it (i.e. the Hobus incident) with a specific licencing, like STP did with the ENT D.
Abrams movies, STD and STP and upcoming Lower Decks belong to licence 2, under which PRIME UNIVERSE is the background for the KELVIN UNIVERSE, loosely based on CANON UNIVERSE for the explicit purpose of DISTANCING and FREEING IT FROM CANON while still exploit it to legitimate it, pay no royalties to owners of license 1 and confuse fans like you that it is the same so you will buy their stuff.
They are also just as distinct in a in-universe viewpoint. STD does NOT belong in The Cage's time period in CANON; only in PRIME. The events of STD never happened in CANON;no USS Senzhou with bridge windshield, no USS Discovery with mushroom drive or black alert, no giant tardigrade, no T'Kuvma heading a Klingon cult, no Klingon cemetery ship, No Klingorcs with cloaking devices 10 years before Balance of Terror, No Spock half-sister with Iron Man's suit, no mutiny on a Starfleet ship, no Section 31 Fleet and badges, no AI Controller, no planetary bomb to enforce Klingon peace etc. As Picard is OFFICIALLY aligned with STD, it is thus officially also in PRIME, NOT CANON.
So you have CANON Universe owned by CBS. Everything that is not Abrams/Kurtzman legally or creatively (everything prior to 2009).
You have KELVIN Universe owned by Bad Robot/Secret Hideout where PRIME Universe is their loose version of Canon. Everything that is legally and creatively Abrams/Kurtzman (everything from 2009 onward so far)
I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
If Prime and Canon are the same, City on the Edge of Forever and ALL time travel episodes in canon make no sense. Heck in TNG, they even were careful in the Robin Hood recreation of Q because of the risk that it COULD be the real thing so History HAD to play out, just to stay safe. Again, this is nonsense with a parallel reality. I prefer my Star Trek to make sense. So there is CANON and there is PRIME. This way, it ALL make sense.
And here we come to time travel. Now, you are equating ALTERNATE and ALTERED timelines. If anything, your last sentence shows it explicitely.
I don't; alternate means an other one that may exist along with the original one. In the Abramsverse, it means BOTH (Prime and Kelvin) exist contiguously with one another. But ALTERED mean it is the ORIGINAL one that is changed, that it doesn't exist anymore; ONLY the new one. This is what we have in CANON.
NO Abrams did not invent it; I know, I've been reading and watching sci-fi for over fifty years. Abrams explicitely stated he is using it to do away with the burden of canon while not alienating fans of it; he did not ALTER the original; he made an ALTERNATE version; same but not same, HIS Star Trek.''
In CANON, TNG Parallels is not called a time travel but a multiverse story. In the Abramsverse (Prime and Kelvin) the two are one and the same (boy they like confusing things, don't they?) and this is the only version offered in their non-canon Star Trek.
THAT is another major difference between CANON and PRIME/KELVIN. In canon, everything has consequences. In PRIME/KELVIN, it is inconsequential as you just create another additional reality to live in. Hence why PRIME Spock in 2009 did nothing to restore the timeline even when billions of Vulcans were killed, while CANON Spock was adamant that Kirk let his love die to restore it. See the difference?
Now about Past Tense; notice that Sisko did NOT create another parallel timeline; he ALTERED the ONE timeline he exists in; he did NOT create a new one while the one with another Bell still exists; no, that one is GONE. Now there is ONLY the Sisko-as-Bell remaining. So it is an ALTERED timeline, NOT an ALTERNATE timeline. See the difference?
The multiverse introduced in Trek with TOS Mirror Mirror and up to and including TNG Parallels are about INFINITE ALTERNATE REALITIES, some that parallel our own events/History. In OUR universe, the CANON universe, the Federation is an utopia; in the Mirror Universe, it is a dystopia. It not a different history of OUR universe because it is not OUR universe but ANOTHER UNIVERSE with it's OWN divergent History eerily similar but not quite. In CANON we were also introduced to even more different realities like an Antimatter universe (TOS The Alternative Factor) and even a Void universe (TOS The Tholian Web) which can also connect to the Mirror Universe (ENT In A Mirror Darkly). All are alternate REALITIES with their OWN timelines, NOT different timelines of our OWN universe.
Thus, the KELVIN UNIVERSE (let's callit U3) already existed (evidenced with the USS Kelvin, the ENT, warp speed and phasers totally different etc) and then was ALTERED by an interference from yet another universe, the PRIME UNIVERSE (U2), where the Hobus supernova happened THERE; not in the CANON UNIVERSE (U1), but a universe (U2) where there has been in it's past a USS Discovery with mushroom drive fighting Klingorcs with cloaks and cemetery ships in Pike's time; the PRIME universe (U2). The PRIME universe (U2) even has it's own MIRROR Universe MU2) quite different from the mirror universe (MU1) in CANON (U1).
I know this can be all very confusing. But to me it is crystal clear that Abrams films, STD and STP are their own thing, while Trek from 1966 to 2005 is another. So far, I much, much prefer the latter. Some the former; some both; some neither.
To each his own.
Fleet XO - RP Director - Former Fleet Admiral, Operations CO, JAG and Ambassador - Former Captain of the USS Artemis and of the flagship USS Horizon - Current Captain of the USS Millennium
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
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Kheren - Admiral
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Okay Kheren. It's obvious that we are talking past each other and are not going to see eye to eye, so I'm finished discussing the topic with you. Additionally, I would appreciate it if you would stop insinuating that I am confused; it's insulting and demeaning. Thank you.
Founder: Lotus Fleet -- Academy Division XO, CO -- Creator: Lotus Fleet Academy
Fleet Executive Officer: Retired -- Recommissioned: Operations Division CO -- Fleet JAG
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Sincere apologies. It was never my intention to insult you in any way.
Indeed we can only agree to disagree at this point. Let's move on.
Indeed we can only agree to disagree at this point. Let's move on.
Fleet XO - RP Director - Former Fleet Admiral, Operations CO, JAG and Ambassador - Former Captain of the USS Artemis and of the flagship USS Horizon - Current Captain of the USS Millennium
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
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Kheren - Admiral
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Well... episode 3...
Again, I will not go in length on this because frankly it's not worth it.
And mind you, for me the show is free.
If episode 01 was a crapfest and episode 2 a cringefest, this one goes into full parody mode.
Between atrocious 21st century Millennial dialogs, costumes and behavior, and a Vulcan wearing sunglasses, a Romulan biker-assassin prisoner monologing about the evil plot, well before killing himself with magic instant acid and the so cliche nerdy science girl, badass drinking-smoking-bitter woman and badass drinking-smoking-bitter lone pilot, we have Sir Patrick now acting as Sir Patrick portraying old and dying Professor X beleiving he is Jean-Luc Picard.
And then we get to the final scene of the episode.
With the iconic TNG theme playing full blown, we witness the glorious launch of the ugliest piece of flying garbage ever seen in Star Trek. For the rest of the show, we will be stuck with a Millenium Falcon wanna-be, a miserable excuse for a Star Trek Renegades rip-off vessel that even makes the asymetrical Breen ships look sexy by comparison.
I actually laughed out loud at this last scene. This looked and felt like it was straight out of Spaceballs. And we hoped the downfall would not begin before ep 04 as we will now enter full Kurtzmantrek mode towards STD season 3.
Well, the music is still quite good.
And I so, so much wanted this show to be at least decent. I so, so much hoped that Picard would live up to his former glory; that I would get back towards Canon/Classic and away from Prime/Kelvin crap. But instead of Star Trek Picard, I got Star Trek Puke Hard.
Seven episodes left; I REALLY want it to get better. At this point, it should not be hard at all.
Again, I will not go in length on this because frankly it's not worth it.
And mind you, for me the show is free.
If episode 01 was a crapfest and episode 2 a cringefest, this one goes into full parody mode.
Between atrocious 21st century Millennial dialogs, costumes and behavior, and a Vulcan wearing sunglasses, a Romulan biker-assassin prisoner monologing about the evil plot, well before killing himself with magic instant acid and the so cliche nerdy science girl, badass drinking-smoking-bitter woman and badass drinking-smoking-bitter lone pilot, we have Sir Patrick now acting as Sir Patrick portraying old and dying Professor X beleiving he is Jean-Luc Picard.
And then we get to the final scene of the episode.
With the iconic TNG theme playing full blown, we witness the glorious launch of the ugliest piece of flying garbage ever seen in Star Trek. For the rest of the show, we will be stuck with a Millenium Falcon wanna-be, a miserable excuse for a Star Trek Renegades rip-off vessel that even makes the asymetrical Breen ships look sexy by comparison.
I actually laughed out loud at this last scene. This looked and felt like it was straight out of Spaceballs. And we hoped the downfall would not begin before ep 04 as we will now enter full Kurtzmantrek mode towards STD season 3.
Well, the music is still quite good.
And I so, so much wanted this show to be at least decent. I so, so much hoped that Picard would live up to his former glory; that I would get back towards Canon/Classic and away from Prime/Kelvin crap. But instead of Star Trek Picard, I got Star Trek Puke Hard.
Seven episodes left; I REALLY want it to get better. At this point, it should not be hard at all.
Fleet XO - RP Director - Former Fleet Admiral, Operations CO, JAG and Ambassador - Former Captain of the USS Artemis and of the flagship USS Horizon - Current Captain of the USS Millennium
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
"In this galaxy, there is a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. In all the universe, three million, million galaxies like this.
And in all of that... and perhaps more...
only one of each of us."
Dr Leonard H. McCoy
TOS Balance of Terror
-
Kheren - Admiral
- Posts: 937
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
** RED ALERT **
Spoilers are in this post and thread. If you have not watched the latest episode of Star Trek Picard and wish to be surprised, do not read any further.
Episode 3: The End is the Beginning
If you take episodes 1 and 2, and combine it with 3, to me, those 3 episodes together really combine to make one long episode. While TNG started off with a 2-part episode, (though on TV, it may have run as a 2-hr special), STP starts off with a 3-part episode. At the end of episode 3, the journey now begins and it’s a natural break. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode in that it brought onto screen much of the backstory that is established in the ST Picard Countdown comic books.
At the beginning of episodes 1-3, we see more and more details revealed about the attack on Utopia Planetia by the synths. It’s an interesting way to tell the story; revealing only little bits at a time keeps you interested in what happened. In this episode, we actually see some code flash across F8’s eyes, which only reinforces my theory that someone transmitted some code which either “activated” some buried code that was planted at an earlier time OR they were reprogrammed right then and there.
This episode’s flashback to the Mars attack actually continues, and for the very first time, we see Admiral Picard in uniform. Admiral Picard is walking out of Starfleet Command, head held low, defeated, at the moment when Starfleet Command forced Picard to retire. We also see Raffi in uniform. Regarding the uniforms; my personal favorite is still the First Contact uniform. The uniforms worn by Starfleet personnel in this scene are more of a variation on the ST: DS9/ST: VOY uniform. They are kindof cool; I’m not a particular fan of how the color on the shoulder goes waaay farther down the arm, instead of staying up on the shoulder. I do like that these uniforms still use the same comm badge and rank insignia as what we saw in TNG, DS9, and VOY.
This scene is important as it establishes that Picard and Raffi worked together previously. The scene also CONFIRMED my previous statement: “Admiral Picard did not simply give up and leave Starfleet; he was FORCED to resign from Starfleet over his vehement advocacy for continuing the Romulan evacuation after Utopia Planetia was destroyed. After the armada of transport ships and Utopia Planetia was destroyed by the synthetics (androids), Starfleet/the Federation decided to give up. Admiral Picard demanded that they continue or he would resign; they forced him out.” To quote Picard, “My resignation was the last desperate, wild solution. I never believed that they would accept it.” The scene also establishes the background of the falling out between Picard and Raffi.
Jump back to the present; we’re at Raffi’s abode at Vasquez Rocks. Raffi is a bit messed up, isn’t she? Smoking some snake leaf which reminds me of vaping, and apparently, she’s also quite the drinker. It also establishes that Picard basically abandoned Raffi over the years; didn’t even check in with her. That is rather out of character for him, but goes to show the level of embarrassment and shame that Picard felt at losing his battle with Starfleet for the Romulan rescue mission. We also get a glimpse at what Raffi may have done while in Starfleet; intelligence officer (based on the insights that she says that she sees and the proof of what occurred on Mars). But Raffi comes through and provides a pilot (and ship) for Picard.
Over to the Borg Artifact Research Institute; we see Hugh (TNG) for the first time. He’s obviously been de-borged, but not as well as The Doctor did with Seven of Nine. The interview with the ex-Borg/Romulan known as Ramdha is interesting, but I’m not really certain what to make of it yet. The dozen or so patients all appear to have a mental disorder relating to their assimilation. The communication from Soji to “Mother” is interesting as it knocks Soji out. Obviously Mother is not a real person…but who or what is in control of the “Mother” program or why Soji passed out, are mysteries to be solved.
Commodore Oh visits Dr. Jurati at the Daystrom Institute to interview Dr. Jurati about her conversation with Picard. Okay, so Commodore Oh is wearing sunglasses. First off, I don’t recall ever seeing anyone from TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT wearing sunglasses, so this is new. Second, sunglasses on a Vulcan? It looks kindof goofy with the ears, but also the sunglasses are physiologically unnecessary! In ENT (“Strange New World” and “The Forge”) it is established that Vulcans had inner eyelids which protected their eyes from the intense sun, as Vulcan was mostly a desert planet. Therefore, the sunglasses were completely superfluous to her species. Additionally, Commodore Oh’s rank insignia was crooked which looked tacky; c’mon wardrobe department! This scene established that Commodore Oh was Director of Starfleet Security which CONFIRMS my previous observation (Commodore Oh appears to be the head of Earth Security or Starfleet Intelligence.) I must point out, however, that if she is the top security officer in all of Starfleet, she should have had a higher rank.
Enter Cristobal Rios and his ship. Picard beams aboard and is greeted by who we later know as an EMH, but one with an English accent that looks just like Rios. We later see an ENH (emergency navigational hologram) that also looks like Rios (but with a different hair cut), but this one has an Irish accent. When we first see the actual Rios, he’s got shrapnel sticking out of his shoulder. This is ridiculous. The ship is immaculate (no damage), so where did the shrapnel come from? Surely, he didn’t get hurt on Earth, so what…he warped for hours or days to get to Earth before then deciding to have the shrapnel removed? This whole thing is just to establish that he’s a tough guy, but it’s terrible writing…too in your face.
Rios’ ship is interesting in that we see a captain’s chair with a conn and ops station, similar to TOS Enterprise helm and navigation station, but this one is modernized. We later see holographic displays pop up as well as the touch consoles. The one scene that is VERY important here is when Rios tells Picard to have a seat, there’s that moment where Picard looks at the captain’s chair, pauses, kindof shakes his head, then goes and sits in another seat opposite of Rios. That look, that pause, and that head motion says it all for where Picard is at in his life. The automatic move to sit in the command chair, the hesitation, then the conscious decision that being in command of a starship is now behind him. That chapter of his life is gone, and he’s moved on.
Though Rios does not confirm it, Picard can “tell” that he was Starfleet. An XO of a heavy cruiser…translation, first officer of something big, like a Galaxy, Sovereign, or Akira class ship (or equivalent), but one that was likely assigned to intelligence missions (black ops) since Starfleet erased it from the books.
We then jump to Chateau Picard; Picard is looking up at the stars as he is getting ready to depart. This stargazing ties directly back to Picard’s childhood where in TNG he stated that he would spend hours looking up at the stars. It also ties back to the TNG episode Family and how Rene was seen under a tree staring up at the stars. Then a Zhat Vash squad attack. I’m not certain if the first shot was intended to hit Zhban or not as he dropped something and bent to pick it up, but the first shot did take out the alarm. After that, the death squad can’t hit anything and we see how deadly Zhban and Laris actually are. This scene also establishes that those are Romulan disruptors. The one thing that drove me up the wall about this is that Dr. Jurati kills the last one…seriously!? The Romulan dude walks through the door but gets taken out by Dr. Jurati (who has no combat training) from the same door that the Romulan walks through!? How? How did that Romulan miss seeing Jurati? Where did Jurati get the disruptor given that all of the Romulans were in the main room.
The scene does DISPROVE my previous theory that the Romulan disruptors had a fingerprint ID or RFID activation sensor. As Zhban, Laris, and Dr. Jurati all used those disruptors, they are obviously not specially activated. Therefore, the rifle that exploded in episode 1 must have been set to overload which we have seen occur in various TNG episodes. When Laris stated that the captured Romulan that was being interrogated was a Northerner, like Zhban, we establish that Romulans do not all look alike. Some have the developed foreheads, some are smooth. On the Borg cube, we also see more “traditional” looking Romulans (from TNG & DS9). This scene also CONFIRMS my previous theory that the Zhat Vash are using acid suicide pills and that the acid (or acid-like substance) basically dissolved the Romulan that was being interrogated (and part of the chair).
The episode ends with Dr. Jurati joining Picard and Raffi on Rois’ ship...the motley crew is assembled. I’m not really a huge fan of this ship. It’s not Starfleet so it’s not meant to follow the same sleek-and-sexy Starfleet design schemes; it’s a civilian vessel that might not even be Earth-made. It’s like an over-sized runabout; maybe it'll grow on me. We get Picard saying “engage” with the TNG theme music playing in the background as the ship warps away. A beautiful ending to the beginning 3-part story arc that kicked off the series.
While a few things bothered me in this episode, overall, this is looking like a great show with an interesting story. It could get worse; it might get better. Only time will tell.
Spoilers are in this post and thread. If you have not watched the latest episode of Star Trek Picard and wish to be surprised, do not read any further.
Episode 3: The End is the Beginning
If you take episodes 1 and 2, and combine it with 3, to me, those 3 episodes together really combine to make one long episode. While TNG started off with a 2-part episode, (though on TV, it may have run as a 2-hr special), STP starts off with a 3-part episode. At the end of episode 3, the journey now begins and it’s a natural break. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode in that it brought onto screen much of the backstory that is established in the ST Picard Countdown comic books.
At the beginning of episodes 1-3, we see more and more details revealed about the attack on Utopia Planetia by the synths. It’s an interesting way to tell the story; revealing only little bits at a time keeps you interested in what happened. In this episode, we actually see some code flash across F8’s eyes, which only reinforces my theory that someone transmitted some code which either “activated” some buried code that was planted at an earlier time OR they were reprogrammed right then and there.
This episode’s flashback to the Mars attack actually continues, and for the very first time, we see Admiral Picard in uniform. Admiral Picard is walking out of Starfleet Command, head held low, defeated, at the moment when Starfleet Command forced Picard to retire. We also see Raffi in uniform. Regarding the uniforms; my personal favorite is still the First Contact uniform. The uniforms worn by Starfleet personnel in this scene are more of a variation on the ST: DS9/ST: VOY uniform. They are kindof cool; I’m not a particular fan of how the color on the shoulder goes waaay farther down the arm, instead of staying up on the shoulder. I do like that these uniforms still use the same comm badge and rank insignia as what we saw in TNG, DS9, and VOY.
This scene is important as it establishes that Picard and Raffi worked together previously. The scene also CONFIRMED my previous statement: “Admiral Picard did not simply give up and leave Starfleet; he was FORCED to resign from Starfleet over his vehement advocacy for continuing the Romulan evacuation after Utopia Planetia was destroyed. After the armada of transport ships and Utopia Planetia was destroyed by the synthetics (androids), Starfleet/the Federation decided to give up. Admiral Picard demanded that they continue or he would resign; they forced him out.” To quote Picard, “My resignation was the last desperate, wild solution. I never believed that they would accept it.” The scene also establishes the background of the falling out between Picard and Raffi.
Jump back to the present; we’re at Raffi’s abode at Vasquez Rocks. Raffi is a bit messed up, isn’t she? Smoking some snake leaf which reminds me of vaping, and apparently, she’s also quite the drinker. It also establishes that Picard basically abandoned Raffi over the years; didn’t even check in with her. That is rather out of character for him, but goes to show the level of embarrassment and shame that Picard felt at losing his battle with Starfleet for the Romulan rescue mission. We also get a glimpse at what Raffi may have done while in Starfleet; intelligence officer (based on the insights that she says that she sees and the proof of what occurred on Mars). But Raffi comes through and provides a pilot (and ship) for Picard.
Over to the Borg Artifact Research Institute; we see Hugh (TNG) for the first time. He’s obviously been de-borged, but not as well as The Doctor did with Seven of Nine. The interview with the ex-Borg/Romulan known as Ramdha is interesting, but I’m not really certain what to make of it yet. The dozen or so patients all appear to have a mental disorder relating to their assimilation. The communication from Soji to “Mother” is interesting as it knocks Soji out. Obviously Mother is not a real person…but who or what is in control of the “Mother” program or why Soji passed out, are mysteries to be solved.
Commodore Oh visits Dr. Jurati at the Daystrom Institute to interview Dr. Jurati about her conversation with Picard. Okay, so Commodore Oh is wearing sunglasses. First off, I don’t recall ever seeing anyone from TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, or ENT wearing sunglasses, so this is new. Second, sunglasses on a Vulcan? It looks kindof goofy with the ears, but also the sunglasses are physiologically unnecessary! In ENT (“Strange New World” and “The Forge”) it is established that Vulcans had inner eyelids which protected their eyes from the intense sun, as Vulcan was mostly a desert planet. Therefore, the sunglasses were completely superfluous to her species. Additionally, Commodore Oh’s rank insignia was crooked which looked tacky; c’mon wardrobe department! This scene established that Commodore Oh was Director of Starfleet Security which CONFIRMS my previous observation (Commodore Oh appears to be the head of Earth Security or Starfleet Intelligence.) I must point out, however, that if she is the top security officer in all of Starfleet, she should have had a higher rank.
Enter Cristobal Rios and his ship. Picard beams aboard and is greeted by who we later know as an EMH, but one with an English accent that looks just like Rios. We later see an ENH (emergency navigational hologram) that also looks like Rios (but with a different hair cut), but this one has an Irish accent. When we first see the actual Rios, he’s got shrapnel sticking out of his shoulder. This is ridiculous. The ship is immaculate (no damage), so where did the shrapnel come from? Surely, he didn’t get hurt on Earth, so what…he warped for hours or days to get to Earth before then deciding to have the shrapnel removed? This whole thing is just to establish that he’s a tough guy, but it’s terrible writing…too in your face.
Rios’ ship is interesting in that we see a captain’s chair with a conn and ops station, similar to TOS Enterprise helm and navigation station, but this one is modernized. We later see holographic displays pop up as well as the touch consoles. The one scene that is VERY important here is when Rios tells Picard to have a seat, there’s that moment where Picard looks at the captain’s chair, pauses, kindof shakes his head, then goes and sits in another seat opposite of Rios. That look, that pause, and that head motion says it all for where Picard is at in his life. The automatic move to sit in the command chair, the hesitation, then the conscious decision that being in command of a starship is now behind him. That chapter of his life is gone, and he’s moved on.
Though Rios does not confirm it, Picard can “tell” that he was Starfleet. An XO of a heavy cruiser…translation, first officer of something big, like a Galaxy, Sovereign, or Akira class ship (or equivalent), but one that was likely assigned to intelligence missions (black ops) since Starfleet erased it from the books.
We then jump to Chateau Picard; Picard is looking up at the stars as he is getting ready to depart. This stargazing ties directly back to Picard’s childhood where in TNG he stated that he would spend hours looking up at the stars. It also ties back to the TNG episode Family and how Rene was seen under a tree staring up at the stars. Then a Zhat Vash squad attack. I’m not certain if the first shot was intended to hit Zhban or not as he dropped something and bent to pick it up, but the first shot did take out the alarm. After that, the death squad can’t hit anything and we see how deadly Zhban and Laris actually are. This scene also establishes that those are Romulan disruptors. The one thing that drove me up the wall about this is that Dr. Jurati kills the last one…seriously!? The Romulan dude walks through the door but gets taken out by Dr. Jurati (who has no combat training) from the same door that the Romulan walks through!? How? How did that Romulan miss seeing Jurati? Where did Jurati get the disruptor given that all of the Romulans were in the main room.
The scene does DISPROVE my previous theory that the Romulan disruptors had a fingerprint ID or RFID activation sensor. As Zhban, Laris, and Dr. Jurati all used those disruptors, they are obviously not specially activated. Therefore, the rifle that exploded in episode 1 must have been set to overload which we have seen occur in various TNG episodes. When Laris stated that the captured Romulan that was being interrogated was a Northerner, like Zhban, we establish that Romulans do not all look alike. Some have the developed foreheads, some are smooth. On the Borg cube, we also see more “traditional” looking Romulans (from TNG & DS9). This scene also CONFIRMS my previous theory that the Zhat Vash are using acid suicide pills and that the acid (or acid-like substance) basically dissolved the Romulan that was being interrogated (and part of the chair).
The episode ends with Dr. Jurati joining Picard and Raffi on Rois’ ship...the motley crew is assembled. I’m not really a huge fan of this ship. It’s not Starfleet so it’s not meant to follow the same sleek-and-sexy Starfleet design schemes; it’s a civilian vessel that might not even be Earth-made. It’s like an over-sized runabout; maybe it'll grow on me. We get Picard saying “engage” with the TNG theme music playing in the background as the ship warps away. A beautiful ending to the beginning 3-part story arc that kicked off the series.
While a few things bothered me in this episode, overall, this is looking like a great show with an interesting story. It could get worse; it might get better. Only time will tell.
Founder: Lotus Fleet -- Academy Division XO, CO -- Creator: Lotus Fleet Academy
Fleet Executive Officer: Retired -- Recommissioned: Operations Division CO -- Fleet JAG
Fleet Executive Officer: Retired -- Recommissioned: Operations Division CO -- Fleet JAG
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Athos - Rear Admiral
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Re: Star Trek Picard - Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
** RED ALERT **
Spoilers are in this post and thread. If you have not watched the latest episode of Star Trek Picard and wish to be surprised, do not read any further.
Episode 4: Absolute Candor
If I were to recap this episode, it would be the backstory and introduction of Elnor (a new character), Picard’s new ready room, and enter Seven of Nine. And that’s about it.
The episode starts out 14 year ago on planet Vashti, a Romulan Relocation Hub. We see a generally happy and welcoming community. Admiral Picard beams down, but he’s not in uniform, which is odd in my opinion. At this point, Picard is still in Starfleet and on official business representing the Federation; why wouldn’t he be in uniform? We see that Picard has already established a trusting/mutual respect relationship with some of the locals and with a young boy named Elnor. Picard gifts Elnor with a book, the Three Musketeers. In my opinion, this establishes why Elnor fights with a sword when he grows up, though there is plenty of reference to others in that group “binding [their] sword] to a cause. This backstory also establishes the existence of a group comprised of all-women, the Qowat Milat, who are described as “warrior nuns”. They apparently took Elnor in as an orphan.
During this flashback, we see Picard promising the Romulans that Starfleet and the Federation is there to help, that Picard would find a suitable place for Elnor (since he is a young boy that doesn’t belong with a bunch of women), Picard fencing with Elnor (showing that Picard is a kind of father figure to the boy), and ending with Picard being notified of the synth attack on Mars.
Jump to the present; we’re aboard Rios’ ship. The warp effect looks different than any other series or movie, but then, that’s par for the course as every show and movie had a different warp effect. We see that Rios’ ship has a holodeck (really? A small ship with a holodeck that drains a ton of energy?) and we’re introduced to an Emergency Hospitality Hologram. Really? Hospitality hologram? I can buy off on Medical, on Navigational, and even Tactical Hologram (as they have operational functions), but hospitality? I think the show is trying to make a joke with the number of holograms that they can make up. But, it’s quickly obvious that the holodeck recreation of Chateau Picard will the Picard’s Ready Room for this show.
We do check in with Soji on the Borg Artifact Research Station; in short, Soji does research, Narek and Soji slide around in their socks and make out, and Narek discusses evil plots with his sister, Rizzo. And that’s about it.
Once Picard arrives at Vashti, we see that the community atmosphere has changed. The people are unhappy, cliquish (e.g., Romulans Only sign), and generally hostile. Think wild west. Picard tries to be friendly, but to no avail. The sisters of the Qowat Milat remember Picard and are still friendly to him; Elnor is ticked off as he feels like his father figure abandoned him. Adult Elnor bears a striking resemblance to the elves in Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit. Picard pleads his case to the lead sister who points him towards Elnor; Picard pleads his case to Elnor who storms off. Picard thinks that he will not get any help and goes back to town. In protest of the segregation mentality, Picard tears down the “Romulans Only” sign and walks into the restaurant. This starts a fight with a Romulan, Tenqem Andrev, who used to be a senator. The dialogue that Tenquem provides is important; it voices that the Romulan people, in his opinion, could have taken care of their own evacuation without the Federation’s help, that, in his view, Picard made promises and then abandoned them, that Picard “gave up”. Apparently, the way of fighting around this planet is by sword as the Romulan ex-senator wishes to dual via sword as Tenqem and his cohorts were all in possession of swords. Long story short, Picard doesn’t want to fight, Elnor kills the instigator. We actually see a beheading which is a little shocking as to the graphic nature that the series will be showing (very Game of Thrones-esque). Picard and Elnor beam to the ship.
Rios’ ship is under attack by the 23rd century Romulan Bird of Prey (BoP) which has been modernized; Rios activates the Emergency Tactical Hologram; they fight the BoP and are losing; enter a mysterious ship that helps them fight the BoP and blast off one of its nacelles; the BoP gets in a lucky shot to the mysterious ship; enter Seven of Nine. End of episode.
Spoilers are in this post and thread. If you have not watched the latest episode of Star Trek Picard and wish to be surprised, do not read any further.
Episode 4: Absolute Candor
If I were to recap this episode, it would be the backstory and introduction of Elnor (a new character), Picard’s new ready room, and enter Seven of Nine. And that’s about it.
The episode starts out 14 year ago on planet Vashti, a Romulan Relocation Hub. We see a generally happy and welcoming community. Admiral Picard beams down, but he’s not in uniform, which is odd in my opinion. At this point, Picard is still in Starfleet and on official business representing the Federation; why wouldn’t he be in uniform? We see that Picard has already established a trusting/mutual respect relationship with some of the locals and with a young boy named Elnor. Picard gifts Elnor with a book, the Three Musketeers. In my opinion, this establishes why Elnor fights with a sword when he grows up, though there is plenty of reference to others in that group “binding [their] sword] to a cause. This backstory also establishes the existence of a group comprised of all-women, the Qowat Milat, who are described as “warrior nuns”. They apparently took Elnor in as an orphan.
During this flashback, we see Picard promising the Romulans that Starfleet and the Federation is there to help, that Picard would find a suitable place for Elnor (since he is a young boy that doesn’t belong with a bunch of women), Picard fencing with Elnor (showing that Picard is a kind of father figure to the boy), and ending with Picard being notified of the synth attack on Mars.
Jump to the present; we’re aboard Rios’ ship. The warp effect looks different than any other series or movie, but then, that’s par for the course as every show and movie had a different warp effect. We see that Rios’ ship has a holodeck (really? A small ship with a holodeck that drains a ton of energy?) and we’re introduced to an Emergency Hospitality Hologram. Really? Hospitality hologram? I can buy off on Medical, on Navigational, and even Tactical Hologram (as they have operational functions), but hospitality? I think the show is trying to make a joke with the number of holograms that they can make up. But, it’s quickly obvious that the holodeck recreation of Chateau Picard will the Picard’s Ready Room for this show.
We do check in with Soji on the Borg Artifact Research Station; in short, Soji does research, Narek and Soji slide around in their socks and make out, and Narek discusses evil plots with his sister, Rizzo. And that’s about it.
Once Picard arrives at Vashti, we see that the community atmosphere has changed. The people are unhappy, cliquish (e.g., Romulans Only sign), and generally hostile. Think wild west. Picard tries to be friendly, but to no avail. The sisters of the Qowat Milat remember Picard and are still friendly to him; Elnor is ticked off as he feels like his father figure abandoned him. Adult Elnor bears a striking resemblance to the elves in Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit. Picard pleads his case to the lead sister who points him towards Elnor; Picard pleads his case to Elnor who storms off. Picard thinks that he will not get any help and goes back to town. In protest of the segregation mentality, Picard tears down the “Romulans Only” sign and walks into the restaurant. This starts a fight with a Romulan, Tenqem Andrev, who used to be a senator. The dialogue that Tenquem provides is important; it voices that the Romulan people, in his opinion, could have taken care of their own evacuation without the Federation’s help, that, in his view, Picard made promises and then abandoned them, that Picard “gave up”. Apparently, the way of fighting around this planet is by sword as the Romulan ex-senator wishes to dual via sword as Tenqem and his cohorts were all in possession of swords. Long story short, Picard doesn’t want to fight, Elnor kills the instigator. We actually see a beheading which is a little shocking as to the graphic nature that the series will be showing (very Game of Thrones-esque). Picard and Elnor beam to the ship.
Rios’ ship is under attack by the 23rd century Romulan Bird of Prey (BoP) which has been modernized; Rios activates the Emergency Tactical Hologram; they fight the BoP and are losing; enter a mysterious ship that helps them fight the BoP and blast off one of its nacelles; the BoP gets in a lucky shot to the mysterious ship; enter Seven of Nine. End of episode.
Founder: Lotus Fleet -- Academy Division XO, CO -- Creator: Lotus Fleet Academy
Fleet Executive Officer: Retired -- Recommissioned: Operations Division CO -- Fleet JAG
Fleet Executive Officer: Retired -- Recommissioned: Operations Division CO -- Fleet JAG
-
Athos - Rear Admiral
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:56 pm
- Has thanked: 53 times
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